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UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed

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Jun 6, 2007, 8:31pm





UFO, ALIEN, DISCLOSURE, SERPO, SEINU, PROJECT-CAMELOT - Open Minds Forum - WWW.OpenMindsForum.com :: General :: UFO/ Alien / Exobiology :: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
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italiclikeitis
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2040 on Today at 6:41pm

I think that people have interfered enough with Raj's personal life.
If he needs anything, he'll think for himself.
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regence
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2041 on Today at 6:52pm


Today at 1:13pm, Double_Nought_Spy wrote:

Where did you get the idea that the burden of proof is on sane people who do not believe bs stories? You have it backwards. You have a lot of company on the web. The renewable energy forums are plagued with people posting nutball free energy ideas they dreamed up. When it is politely pointed out that the plans are nothing but a lot of nonsense, the posters get all indignant and say Prove Me Wrong. That's not how it works. If you claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine, then it is your job to prove it. If you claim to have visited the planet Bozon and have some silly pictures, it is not up to everyone else to prove you need professional help.


Amen to that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden of proof is on the claimaint, not the rest of us.

Otherwise one could spend their entire life attempting to validate a million dubious claims!
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2042 on Today at 6:56pm


Today at 1:13pm, Double_Nought_Spy wrote:

Where did you get the idea that the burden of proof is on sane people who do not believe bs stories? You have it backwards. You have a lot of company on the web. The renewable energy forums are plagued with people posting nutball free energy ideas they dreamed up. When it is politely pointed out that the plans are nothing but a lot of nonsense, the posters get all indignant and say Prove Me Wrong. That's not how it works. If you claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine, then it is your job to prove it. If you claim to have visited the planet Bozon and have some silly pictures, it is not up to everyone else to prove you need professional help.


I think you misunderstood what I said. There still IS a burden of proof for anybody making claims!!!

But at present, photos are still accepted as proof. If you want to reject photos as proof, you have to have a good and demonstrable reason to do so. Just claiming that it can be faked is not enough. It's not because it can be faked that it has been faked.

The person who claims that evidence is not admissible has to prove why. (I'm talking as a lawyer here, meaning that this is how it works in a court of law).
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2043 on Today at 6:59pm


Today at 3:18pm, calikid wrote:

Shads,
May have missed it, sorry if this has already been answered.

The pics themselves (1600x1200) show they were captured on 5/16/2007.

Internal data (open JPG file with notepad) shows the date last save as 5/20/07. It also shows the file was saved by "Photoshop CS".


The metadata shows the photo's were taken on Wed May 16th around 5pm in the evening.

Raj's original report on May 21 claimed:

"This week I was visting my fiance's parents in Capitola (we were actually there to tell them about our engagement, in fact). We were eating dinner on the back porch when we noticed this "object" sort of hovering in the sky. ..........Anyway, I created this Flickr account for the best of these pictures."

So Raj was eating dinner with his future inlaws at 5pm on a weekday?
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2044 on Today at 7:00pm


Today at 6:56pm, garuda wrote:

Today at 1:13pm, Double_Nought_Spy wrote:

Where did you get the idea that the burden of proof is on sane people who do not believe bs stories? You have it backwards. You have a lot of company on the web. The renewable energy forums are plagued with people posting nutball free energy ideas they dreamed up. When it is politely pointed out that the plans are nothing but a lot of nonsense, the posters get all indignant and say Prove Me Wrong. That's not how it works. If you claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine, then it is your job to prove it. If you claim to have visited the planet Bozon and have some silly pictures, it is not up to everyone else to prove you need professional help.


I think you misunderstood what I said. There still IS a burden of proof for anybody making claims!!!

But at present, photos are still accepted as proof. If you want to reject photos as proof, you have to have a good and demonstrable reason to do so. Just claiming that it can be faked is not enough. It's not because it can be faked that it has been faked.

The person who claims that evidence is not admissible has to prove why. (I'm talking as a lawyer here, meaning that this is how it works in a court of law).


Amen to that!
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2045 on Today at 7:06pm


Today at 6:59pm, regence wrote:


Raj's original report on May 21...
So Raj was eating dinner with his future inlaws at 5pm on a weekday?


what's the problem with a weekday?
and i think the flickr accout was created on the 20th, so i would assume that's when he made the comments?
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2046 on Today at 7:09pm

I don't feel like the photos themselves are "proof." I would consider them to be information or data in need of analysis.

I think proof is a judgment made by those who look at the photos and weigh the "testimony" and corroborating information. The photos were submitted along with stories about their origins. In addition, the photos are tagged with other data that are up for analysis and interpretation as well.

I think the analysis of all this information, from the photos to the metadata to the stories, is all fair game. I don't think anyone has a "burden of proof" on one side or the other, because all participation in this thing is voluntary and at will. Raj, Chad, and Tahoe wife have all put these photos up and asked for people's feedback. I don't get the sense that they are making claims as to what they are. The implicit claim they have made is that these objects are real and that they photographed them in the manner that they said they did.

But on the other hand, it should not hurt their feelings if some are skeptical of their stories.

It has obviously been great fun for a lot of people and has piqued a lot of interest.

I'm very curious to see where the Capitola PD involvement leads, and what the "return of Raj" will bring.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2047 on Today at 7:20pm

Why...???

Raj, if one truly understands his culture and civilizational background, needs only to be encouraged with dignity and respects to make it easy for him to continue with his dialogue with our OM membership.

Hence, the involvement of the police is unnecessary and serves no purpose save to scare him off.

Raj would come of his own free will - devoid of pressure and undue publicity.

I would have thought that one shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill, pal.

This, therefore, is not paranoid, but common sense in dealing with a new and valued member such as Raj.

Cheers,
Greatwaller ;D
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2048 on Today at 7:22pm

I'm all in favour of scrutinizing the photos!

The more information we have, the better our judgment on the case will be.

And, as I said before, a tremendous job has already been done, and is still being done.

What I was reacting to is the demand that somebody made that Raj should prove the photos were real and not CGI.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2049 on Today at 7:29pm

As far as I understand it, the inquiry was made to the Capitola PD as to whether any reports had been made of a UFO on 5/16, and Detective Gonzales emailed back promising to look into it. I don't know why that should be threatening to Raj or anyone else, and may potentially yield additional information.

Because if the object is real, then it was seen by others. Why would the police scare Raj off? I think he would only be concerned if he's perpetrating a hoax and even if he is, I don't know how it would be a crime.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2050 on Today at 7:39pm


Today at 7:00pm, 10538 wrote:

Today at 6:56pm, garuda wrote:


I think you misunderstood what I said. There still IS a burden of proof for anybody making claims!!!

But at present, photos are still accepted as proof. If you want to reject photos as proof, you have to have a good and demonstrable reason to do so. Just claiming that it can be faked is not enough. It's not because it can be faked that it has been faked.

The person who claims that evidence is not admissible has to prove why. (I'm talking as a lawyer here, meaning that this is how it works in a court of law).


Amen to that!


Add me to that list of "Amen" ers!
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2051 on Today at 7:47pm


Today at 7:20pm, greatwaller wrote:
Why...???

Raj, if one truly understands his culture and civilizational background, needs only to be encouraged with dignity and respects to make it easy for him to continue with his dialogue with our OM membership.

Hence, the involvement of the police is unnecessary and serves no purpose save to scare him off.

Raj would come of his own free will - devoid of pressure and undue publicity.

I would have thought that one shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill, pal.

This, therefore, is not paranoid, but common sense in dealing with a new and valued member such as Raj.

Cheers,
Greatwaller ;D


All good points , as usual GW! 8-)

I would just like to add, perhaps it is best to be mindful about making assumptions about anyone's* culture just because of their *name* is not always the best thing to do! I say that from a UK perspective - if Raj was over here, he may well be second or third gen Asian, and eating more fish 'n' chips and pudding than any dyed in the wool Brit ever did! ;)

But valid points.

Personally, I don't think any 'protection' is in order - but he has nothing to lose by at least giving detective Gonzales as much detail of the incident as he can. In this day and age - with 'terror attacks' and such, you really can't be too careful. Besides, detective Gonzales may well be able to even trace the callers to his family home - thus making Raj and family feel more secure.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2052 on Today at 7:58pm

admin,

are you sure the police chief's response "the same craft was reported in tahoe" was in reguards to your articles? for some reason that doesn't add up to me because we never knew anything was "reported" in tahoe. is he refering to the mufon report???

its bugging me, if you could clear this up i'de appreciate it.

if he was implying that there was actually a [police]report in tahoe of the same craft and then the detective went on to say there has been no sightings and he would know if there were it contradicts what the police chief said and we need to talk more with the police chief in reguards to what he meant about it being reported in tahoe.

please let us know.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2053 on Today at 8:09pm


Today at 7:58pm, colorsymphony wrote:
admin,

are you sure the police chief's response "the same craft was reported in tahoe" was in reguards to your articles? for some reason that doesn't add up to me because we never knew anything was "reported" in tahoe. is he refering to the mufon report???

its bugging me, if you could clear this up i'de appreciate it.

if he was implying that there was actually a [police]report in tahoe of the same craft and then the detective went on to say there has been no sightings and he would know if there were it contradicts what the police chief said and we need to talk more with the police chief in reguards to what he meant about it being reported in tahoe.

please let us know.


He was referring to this article.

I asked him for clarification - and that was when he passed on my queries to detective Gonzales.
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 Re: UFO -'best yet'? up close and detailed
Reply #2054 on Today at 8:25pm


Today at 6:56pm, garuda wrote:
But at present, photos are still accepted as proof.


This is the one sentence I have a problem with. Photos aren't "proof" any more than someone's claims of seeing something strange are "proof" that they did in fact see it. The photos are a piece of evidence that needs to be critically examined, especially when they are as extraordinary as these are.

Proof: "Evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth."
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